F*cking Heartless...

[Herald]

Here, Elijah, this might help you see why it didn't come across as such.

And Lucien, thanks for recognizing my genius, but I'm going to have to ask you to not join any debate teams. Basically, the animals end up dead. Do you really think sentimentality is going to make anyone want to change their business practices? Unless there's a good reason related to the quality of the product, dipping animals into boiling water is not only cruel, but it's probably not cost effective. It's excessive and unnecessary. The argument here is really the method of killing, and it would be more efficient to simply line them up in front of a guillotine. Just ask the French. More animals could be slaughtered, so more fur could be sold, and more profits could be made. To think that a few presumably middle-class consumers boycotting a product most of them either probably weren't interested in to begin with, or in my own case, simply couldn't afford even if they did want it, is going to stop an entire industry, I recommend taking business classes. The people who want to buy fur aren't going to stop because you don't like it. The industry isn't going to stop because you don't like it. The methods are probably not going to stop either, and the fact that there are far more pressing issues to worry about remains valid.

[Lucien]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize your were both genius and psychic, because I don't remember using the word middle class anywhere.

In fact, I didn't say few either.

I said spread the message around. I said it'd be easier to stop this if everyone stopped buying fur. I don't believe I said anything about it being easy to convince these people. Maybe if they're on the fence, but not if they're convinced buying fur is just fine.

So please, use your abilities to predict the winning lottery numbers for me instead, kay?

[Typheus]

Heh, when I read the title, I thought some asshole was trying to bring Kingdom Hearts plots into Althanas :P

Also, debating about something like this is a bit senseless, isn't it? I mean all it's gonna do is cause a big fight that will eventually result in getting everyone pissed at each other and get everyone no where. I mean, hell, wouldn't it be easier, and more efficient, to just mail your state senator and ask him to throw something up in Congress?

Guys, I don't mean to sound like a lazy slob who doesn't care what happens to the world (actually getting to the point where I don't, sadly), but I really think you all need to cool it, because unless you all are screwing around, I think you all are about to become enemies if only for the time being.

[Herald]

Lucien: I'm too lazy to go cleverly find the definition to "presumably" and link it here, but you might want to look into that. I highly doubt you have Donald Trump's ear to voice these complaints into. Yes, I added that on my own, you never said it, congratulations. It simply helps demonstrate my point in an economic context.

And no, you didn't say "few," but that's who you're reaching unless you have a better way to spread your message. You're talking to a "few" people right now...the population of Althanas isn't a major voting demographic, last time I checked. Neither are the "few" other people you might have told. My point is that "everyone" is not going to stop buying fur, like you're suggesting.

Typheus: While I agree that this particular conversation is pointless, healthy debate is generally a good thing. I personally wouldn't bother writing to Congress about anything, because I have no faith in American politics and/or their ability to accomplish anything. As far as I'm concerned, they're all worthless power-mongers, more focused on their own careers than making a difference, and I don't have time to waste on them.

Oh, and the winning pick six, in case you were interested: 3 7 2 6 4 9...Knock yourself out.

[Lucien]

You know Herald, you're absolutely right. There has never been a case were a minority has grown with a strong voice, gathered supporters, and eventually changed the status quo.

And it's not like celebrities are endorsing this kind of thing.

Yay for defeatism, pessimism, and apathy. What bad things have they ever caused?

[Atzar]

As far as I'm concerned, they're all worthless power-mongers, more focused on their own careers than making a difference, and I don't have time to waste on them.

And it's that defeatist, glass-half-empty approach that makes problems infinitely harder to solve.

"I don't have time to waste making an effort when the people with the weight to make change happen don't give a shit."

"Next time you see a guy wearing a fur coat, punch him in the face."

Do you see why many of us aren't taking this seriously? You complain about it, but when the suggestion of acting comes up, you back off under the excuse that it won't make a difference. Maybe, maybe not, but I guarantee sitting on your ass makes even less of a difference.

Frankly, I don't see a problem with wearing fur. I wouldn't wear it personally, but I look at it this way: it doesn't erase the deed. If the consumer waxes humanitarian in front of the coat rack and says "you know, this is just wrong, I shouldn't buy this," it doesn't change the fact that the animal died. Instead of being on the guys back, the fur will sit on the rack and collect dust. In other words, the people that buy the fur later aren't the ones that are killing the animals.

Don't whack the guys that buy it. Target the people that do it.

[Herald]

Yes, because animal rights is anywhere near the importance and magnitude of civil rights.

While Steve-O might be rich, I don't think anyone is going to call him upper-class or part of the aristocracy.

You have a penchant for utterly unrelated links. Please see the one I left for Elijah earlier. Logic seems to escape you in regards to this argument, so I'm pretty much done here. I'll be at a diner, endorsing the heartless murder of bovines for my burger.

EDIT: For Atzar - I stand by my defeatist, apathetic, pessimistic approach, and continue to maintain we have bigger problems to concern ourselves with. My solution is to move out of the country upon the coronation of the next Queen Clinton.

[Lucien]

Yes, because animal rights is anywhere near the importance and magnitude of civil rights.

I never said that. I never inferred that. And I believe the only reason you're bringing this up is because you can't counter my point. Don't hide behind a veil of sarcasm and bring up importance (which I already mentioned was subjective) of an issue because you're wrong.

While Steve-O might be rich, I don't think anyone is going to call him upper-class or part of the aristocracy.

And the other three? Countless other celebrities for liberal causes? Steve-O, even if he's not looked up to by you (center of the universe though you may be), is still a role model to some people.

You have a penchant for utterly unrelated links. Please see the one I left for Elijah earlier. Logic seems to escape you in regards to this argument, so I'm pretty much done here. I'll be at a diner, endorsing the heartless murder of bovines for my burger.

That was cruel to people who are actually vegetarians, who fight for this cause, and who may just die for it. Congrats.

[Herald]

Now that I feel like an idiot for letting you pointlessly prattle on, being the center of the universe and all, I feel the need to post one last time.

Importance of this issue, astoundingly, is NOT subjective. Sorry, but if you think the life of an animal is as important as that of a human, you're simply wrong.

The other celebs were also mostly inconsequential. Celebrities for liberal causes, fine...but not this particular cause is growing more and inane and irritating by the moment.

I have unaffected scorn for vegetarians to begin with, and anyone who would choose to die for that, well, I reserve the right to be cruel in my judgment of their wasted efforts. omgz, plants are alive too...beans are babies and that's murder too!

Yeah, I'm completely done here. Enjoy yourself. I need to be at the diner now.

[Atzar]

I have unaffected scorn for vegetarians to begin with, and anyone who would choose to die for that, well, I reserve the right to be cruel in my judgment of their wasted efforts. omgz, plants are alive too...beans are babies and that's murder too!

Yeah, I'm completely done here. Enjoy yourself. I need to be at the diner now.

Lucien's comment about you thinking that you're the center of the universe was right on point. What right do you have to scorn another's beliefs? It's thoughts like that which led to all of the problems that you seem to think are more important. The gay rights movements are a result of that line of thinking... a result of people 'scorning' the way of life of others. The war in the Middle East is, at least in part, a result of religious conflicts. I could also reference Hitler and the Jews, if I wished. Take your pick. There are plenty more corroborating examples out there. In just about every conflict in mankind's history, the attitude that you just displayed was at its root.

Way to go. You've just put together the most arrogant, opinionated, bullshit argument that I've ever seen.