AP Program Feedback Discussion

[SirArtemis]

Hi Everyone,

So I just recently came back and submitted a thread and noticed the AP Program. So I read up on that and volunteered. We were discussing briefly in chat today so I thought I'd share some concerns. Others of course welcome to chime in.

REMEMBER: It's still in testing and nothing is set in stone. Dirks admitted it's a huge gamble but he wants to play around with it, so maybe we can find a way to make this work. So just share what you think and we can put ideas on the table.


First point: I think there should be more methods to earn AP. One thing that came to mind was posting a vignette. Participating in something like that and exercising your writing I think deserves a point. I understand the judge for vignettes may have more submissions, but that isn't inherently bad. Activity is rather the goal I think.

Discounts would also maybe be nice. For example, winning a vignette or coming in second maybe earns you a voucher for a 2 or 3 AP discount on a thread submission. So I could get a full rubric for 2 instead of 5 points.

Second Point: It is still unclear if cost of thread submission is charged from the person submitting the thread, or of all participants. How is the cost distributed/allocated?

Third Point: Something to think about: are costs too high to get a thread judged? Is the purpose of the AP system to give the judges less to judge? In the end, I think many of the writers who come here are looking to improve and it is critical to have access to full rubric and full commentary judgments. Otherwise, why stay? Why write to just level up if you continue to suck and not learn?

Fourth Point: I'm just confused as to the point of book reports. What is their purpose? What are you going to do with those summaries? Is there any reason to collect them or is it just "good job, here's a cookie." If there is a purpose, what is it and what methods will help us achieve that?

Fifth Point: Will thread performance potentially change the cost of the judgment? For example, if you score 60+, do you get 1 point refund on a full commentary rubric? 70+ 2 points, 80+ 3 points, or anything of the sort?


Overall, I'm still confused by how this program will reward participation if there are few ways to earn points aside from book reports and judging threads, which each give 2 points. Whereas a story you wrote and submitted can cost five to get a full judgment on. Again, the commentary is sort of the point, and even workshop submissions for colleague feedback costs the 2 points.

Just some ofmy thoughts.

[redford]

Bump

[Cards of Fate]

The book reports are part of another project if I recall. The main purpose is to gather basic summaries of most threads and make a "vault" with this information so that if someone was looking to read threads relevant to say...the Raiaeran Reconstruction, they could do so with ease.

[jdd2035]

I think the system is pretty horrible and the more it's fought for the less I like it. The idea is that the Mods are getting overwhelmed in trying to judge threads not to mention a back log. Yeah I get that but instead of highering and promoting more mods and judges and having the admin also judge you instead have decided to put more of a burden on the player by creating a form of currency in which to use to maybe gain a little more XP and Gold.

Argument #1: Earning AP is easy you just have to do Writers Workshops, Podcasts ETC.

Counter point: If you want people to do the job of a staff member make them a staff member. I don't want to be a staff member, I am not qualified to judge other peoples work my grammar and composition are atrocious so it would be hypocritical for me to judge any one else's work. Not to mention that it's too much work for not enough reward being a staff member. As for the podcasts I personally like my privacy, I barely have a facebook account, I have black tape covering the obligatory camera on my lap top, and no one on the internet that I don't know in real life will ever hear my voice. As for the rest like vigs and the like their okay but take a really long time to get graded and are subject to the capriciousness of the person that started the thing.

Now lets talk about what we get out of spending AP and this is kind of an after thought: I work my ass off and "earn" 5 AP I spend it on a full judgement and I get maybe a 59, 60 if I'm lucky? Or I can hammer out a 10 poster with out a thought and have a no judgement and get a 55. I have to post and wait for someone to accept 5 vigs (so a minimum of 5 months) then write at a higher quality thread than is comfortable for something that is meant to be entertainment for me and then wait another month for a 59 or 60. That is not worth all of the effort I just put in.

The leads into Argument #2

Argument #2: You don't have to pay AP just take a no judgment.

Counterpoint: Most likely that is what I will be doing, the only draw back is any ...unique items I'll have to buy from the bazaar and thus they are severally overpriced.

[Bard]

Only the person submitting the thread pays AP Artemis.

[SirArtemis]

Ok, given a few weeks in, I have some thoughts worth sharing. I know this will still take time to evolve and play out and the usefulness of this feedback may change. I brought it up in the general discussion we have going but I just wanted to place it where it belongs since this is AP specific discussion.

1.) I think that workshop rewards should not be based on the rubric you provide. I know this is already being discussed so I'll keep it brief. I think there should be a flat 2 or 3 point reward for giving a valid critique. This is subjective to a judge but I know they are lenient with what is valid, so I'm not concerned. I considered a "super useful" bonus like we supposedly have now but that will step on peoples' toes too much, whether what's constructive is determined by a judge or the authors themselves as "super useful." I don't want dissent, so flat rate it is.

2.) I am still a proponent of hybric judgments. I know Dirks is aware of this and has shot it down for the time being, but I'd still like to note it. In the case of some threads that I take very seriously (the solo I have planned is one example) I would like to be able to spend a bit extra AP that I earned, if I'd like to, in order to get a full judge rubric as well as a workshop. You could break it out for a judge condensed + workshop as well as a judge full + workshop, and just have the judge post their judgment in the workshop thread as the last comment when it gets locked down. I would take the reward based on the official judge, but still get the feedback of the community and they would be rewarded for their work as well. Dirks mentioned I can do this OOC, which I did, but all I can offer people is gold and having the staff support the reward with the traditional benefits is a better boon to the authors and reviewers alike.

3.) This is just a note. I think it's one of the big sources of contention. The question of the purpose of this site. Is it a game first and foremost, or a means to improve one's writing? If it's a game, I think you just want to level up, and get rewarded as quickly as possible. Providing this crowd their no-jugdment no-AP option that the system has is critical. Getting their xp/gp calculated and awarded ASAP as well as their character profiles approved ASAP is also critical. As for those who seek to improve their writing, I think that is who the AP system is for. And quite frankly, I think one it's a forced hand by the mods, but a good decision, to almost require players who want to improve their writing to read the work of other authors. Quite frankly, I think you can't be a better writer if you don't read other works, and this is a good way to basically force that hand. It's like having a teacher who believes in you pushing you to do what will make you better.

[Ioder]

For some one with not much time on his hands having to work for Ap in order to post and contribute to the IC world I feel this system needs to be altered. I work a near 70 hour work week and attend classes twice a week. I'm sure I'm not the only one who can't find time to do workshops.

WHY NOT GIVE EVERYONE 2 AP A MONTH FOR FREE. AT LEAST THEN EVERYONE CAN DO SOMETHING.

[SirArtemis]

WHY NOT GIVE EVERYONE 2 AP A MONTH FOR FREE. AT LEAST THEN EVERYONE CAN DO SOMETHING.

I could get behind this. Either for all accounts or maybe create a thread every month where a player can just log in, post, and at the end of the month a mod will just add AP for all members who posted (kind of like the claim your initial AP thread). I'm not sure how much work that would be but it may be a good idea to tinker with.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

It has been discussed and shelved prior to this post, but I have spoken to a number of people (and I include myself in this number) who believe that a tweak to the system could work wonders and that a nominal amount of AP should be awarded for a completed IC thread. That nominal amount could be a matter of debate, but I don't think 2AP would be an unreasonable amount, or perhaps even a scaled approach depending on thread quality and length.

[SirArtemis]

It has been discussed and shelved prior to this post, but I have spoken to a number of people (and I include myself in this number) who believe that a tweak to the system could work wonders and that a nominal amount of AP should be awarded for a completed thread. That nominal amount could be a matter of debate, but I don't think 2AP would be an unreasonable amount.

Hmm interesting. Wouldn't this be the same as just scaling the cost of judgments down? Only difference would be that if you embedded this change into the cost of the judgment, then only the submitting person would be affected (example, workshop free, no judgment, earn 2 AP, full rubric, cost 3 AP). But if you did it to all contributors, say two authors submit a thread, one will net out 0 AP if submitting a workshop, the other author will gain 2 AP.

[Flames of Hyperion]

At the risk of sounding self-centred, please allow me to chime in with a few thoughts as well.

Given that the AP system is only three weeks old, I'm not surprised that a lot of debate centres on the balance between earning and spending AP. I think there's a valid concern that Citadel battles might prove to be too expensive under the new system, with a minimum 4AP spend for a condensed judgement. I'm sure the staff are aware of this, and I wouldn't be surprised if the idea of lowering the cost for Workshop judgements to 1AP has been punted around either. That said, the Workshop judges - Rayleigh! - have been quite lenient about granting AP in proportion to the effort made in the contribution, not just whether or not it follows the strict Althanas rubrics. Hence I'm personally not too fussed about the current reward structure beyond the Citadel issue, and perhaps updating the AP guide to make this last point about Workshop contributions clear.

The hybrid judgement idea is an interesting one, albeit perhaps a bit premature (I would suggest let's see how the current system works with the Workshop for now). It ties into my suggestion that official judges should probably look to post in the Workshops a bit more as well, if only to encourage further participation.

Regarding Workshops, my fear is that people see the current rewards scheme and imagine that they have to put in a couple of hours to read and *judge* the thread. I would like to counter this misconception. When I submit a thread for a Workshop, I won't deny that I'm interested in getting in-depth critiques from multiple sources. But more than that, I seek simple *opinions* from people who take the time to read my writing, even if it's just five minutes to skim the first few paragraphs. Please don't think that you need to spend three hours reading the thread and matching an Althanas judge's effort. Even a simple "I read the first paragraph, and it didn't hook me, so I didn't read any further" is great feedback! In Artemis's words, I'm here to improve my writing, and I can't do that without your help.

JDD, you mentioned that you don't feel comfortable judging other people's writing. Thank you for bringing this up, because I didn't either when I started in the Workshop. In fact I still don't - I break out into a cold sweat every time I'm poised to submit a Workshop contribution, I kid you not. Have I read the thread properly? Have I missed a crucial line or a hidden piece of foreshadowing? You might notice that I don't give scores - that's because I'm deadly certain that I'm not qualified to make such objective judgements. But over time, I have grown more relaxed in reading somebody else's work and giving my personal opinion on it, in such a way that it helps not only them but me as well. Again as Artemis said, I've noticed a considerable improvement in my own writing by reading everybody else's and forcing myself to analyse what I like about it and what I don't.

I'll shut up for now. But I hope the above comments are of some help to those concerned about participating in the Workshop, whether because they don't have time or because they just don't feel good enough.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

At the risk of sounding self-centred, please allow me to chime in with a few thoughts as well.

Given that the AP system is only three weeks old, I'm not surprised that a lot of debate centres on the balance between earning and spending AP. I think there's a valid concern that Citadel battles might prove to be too expensive under the new system, with a minimum 4AP spend for a condensed judgement. I'm sure the staff are aware of this, and I wouldn't be surprised if the idea of lowering the cost for Workshop judgements to 1AP has been punted around either. That said, the Workshop judges - Rayleigh! - have been quite lenient about granting AP in proportion to the effort made in the contribution, not just whether or not it follows the strict Althanas rubrics. Hence I'm personally not too fussed about the current reward structure beyond the Citadel issue, and perhaps updating the AP guide to make this last point about Workshop contributions clear.

The hybrid judgement idea is an interesting one, albeit perhaps a bit premature (I would suggest let's see how the current system works with the Workshop for now). It ties into my suggestion that official judges should probably look to post in the Workshops a bit more as well, if only to encourage further participation.

Regarding Workshops, my fear is that people see the current rewards scheme and imagine that they have to put in a couple of hours to read and *judge* the thread. I would like to counter this misconception. When I submit a thread for a Workshop, I won't deny that I'm interested in getting in-depth critiques from multiple sources. But more than that, I seek simple *opinions* from people who take the time to read my writing, even if it's just five minutes to skim the first few paragraphs. Please don't think that you need to spend three hours reading the thread and matching an Althanas judge's effort. Even a simple "I read the first paragraph, and it didn't hook me, so I didn't read any further" is great feedback! In Artemis's words, I'm here to improve my writing, and I can't do that without your help.

JDD, you mentioned that you don't feel comfortable judging other people's writing. Thank you for bringing this up, because I didn't either when I started in the Workshop. In fact I still don't - I break out into a cold sweat every time I'm poised to submit a Workshop contribution, I kid you not. Have I read the thread properly? Have I missed a crucial line or a hidden piece of foreshadowing? You might notice that I don't give scores - that's because I'm deadly certain that I'm not qualified to make such objective judgements. But over time, I have grown more relaxed in reading somebody else's work and giving my personal opinion on it, in such a way that it helps not only them but me as well. Again as Artemis said, I've noticed a considerable improvement in my own writing by reading everybody else's and forcing myself to analyse what I like about it and what I don't.

I'll shut up for now. But I hope the above comments are of some help to those concerned about participating in the Workshop, whether because they don't have time or because they just don't feel good enough.

Excellent post. There is nothing more nerve wracking then judging the writing of someone you think is a better writer than you, and anyone looking to make a workshop contribution but not knowing where to start should take heed.

[Kryos]

3.) This is just a note. I think it's one of the big sources of contention. The question of the purpose of this site. Is it a game first and foremost, or a means to improve one's writing? If it's a game, I think you just want to level up, and get rewarded as quickly as possible. Providing this crowd their no-jugdment no-AP option that the system has is critical. Getting their xp/gp calculated and awarded ASAP as well as their character profiles approved ASAP is also critical. As for those who seek to improve their writing, I think that is who the AP system is for. And quite frankly, I think one it's a forced hand by the mods, but a good decision, to almost require players who want to improve their writing to read the work of other authors. Quite frankly, I think you can't be a better writer if you don't read other works, and this is a good way to basically force that hand. It's like having a teacher who believes in you pushing you to do what will make you better.


Regarding Workshops, my fear is that people see the current rewards scheme and imagine that they have to put in a couple of hours to read and *judge* the thread. I would like to counter this misconception. When I submit a thread for a Workshop, I won't deny that I'm interested in getting in-depth critiques from multiple sources. But more than that, I seek simple *opinions* from people who take the time to read my writing, even if it's just five minutes to skim the first few paragraphs. Please don't think that you need to spend three hours reading the thread and matching an Althanas judge's effort. Even a simple "I read the first paragraph, and it didn't hook me, so I didn't read any further" is great feedback! In Artemis's words, I'm here to improve my writing, and I can't do that without your help.

Reading the works of Godhand, WitchBlade, Artifex, Flames of Hyperion and others years ago when I started and seeing what they were doing compared to what I was doing was the most influential thing in helping me improve my writing, and that is still the case now. The AP system, especially the workshop, encourages this.

[Storm Veritas]

But more than that, I seek simple *opinions* from people who take the time to read my writing, even if it's just five minutes to skim the first few paragraphs. Please don't think that you need to spend three hours reading the thread and matching an Althanas judge's effort. Even a simple "I read the first paragraph, and it didn't hook me, so I didn't read any further" is great feedback! In Artemis's words, I'm here to improve my writing, and I can't do that without your help.


I agree with this completely. If we are writing to attract readers, then the impact that my work has in "hooking" a reader is absolutely critical to me.

[Bard]

Storm I've been following your character since your character put dirt on himself and attacked a group of slavers in Salvar.

[SirArtemis]

I think that currently the fact that a workshop is 2 AP and a flat 65 reward will guaranteed net you more than a basic judgment, which costs more AP, is concerning. A basic can maximum get you 60. Maybe we could scale basic up to 50, 60, 70, or at least increase the spectrum from 40 to 60 to 40 to 70? Something to the sort. Otherwise, as Rayse noted and I agree with, people will auto-submit to workshop any threads that they don't think can beat 65. So it ends up just putting "junk" work up there for a good reward. Even a no judgment, which is free, is a 55, with the 3 AP basic judgment a 60 max.

[Christoph]

That's a case of "feature, not bug." The workshop and no judgment options are designed for quests that would otherwise score lower. Workshop for those trying to improve and NJ for casual threads. It's good if more people are using those options. Think of it as a move toward a more self sufficient system.

[SirArtemis]

That's a case of "feature, not bug." The workshop and no judgment options are designed for quests that would otherwise score lower. Workshop for those trying to improve and NJ for casual threads. It's good if more people are using those options. Think of it as a move toward a more self sufficient system.

I mean I'm always looking to get better and I do love the full rubric feedback but I feel if I could get that AND feedback from the workshop that would be even better.

[Flames of Hyperion]

I mean I'm always looking to get better and I do love the full rubric feedback but I feel if I could get that AND feedback from the workshop that would be even better.

I'm in agreement with Artemis here - I'm very fond of the Workshop, particularly in its current surge of participation, and find myself sufficiently attracted by the possibility of feedback from multiple sources (and not attracted by the caveat of a 'high score' from a full rubric judgement that involves a heavy load on the judges) that I've been using it exclusively for a while now and will probably continue to do so.

But if there was an option to get both a Workshop and a full judgement in one, would I use that? Quite likely!

[Bard]

Then we should either encourage judges to do workshops, or we should perhaps offer something that combines the two?

[SirArtemis]

Then we should either encourage judges to do workshops, or we should perhaps offer something that combines the two?

My vote was to have a higher AP cost to do a combined workshop + condensed rubric, and an even higher cost for a workshop + full rubric. We'll see if that comes up. At the moment the plan I think is to get judges more involved in participating in workshops, but I feel that may not be the same as asking a full rubric of them. I'm more than happy to take the time to earn AP so that a thread that's really important to me gets the full treatment.

[Christoph]

I don't mind a free market approach to AP. If you have the points, I don't see the problem with letting you spend them as you see fit, even if it's on the same thread. These are my opinions, of course, and not an official statement from the staff.

[black shadow]

I recently learned that because battle threads are required to be full judgements, they cost you 5 AP to have judged.

I feel this discourages battles. I know some characters are based around battles.

How to fix the problem:
1) battles are not required as full Judgements
2) they don't cost 5 AP, maybe drop to 2 or 3

[Taische]

Battles can be condensed judgments.

[Alkor]

Also, battles have the highest exp yield out of any form of thread. Why shouldn't they cost a proportionate amount of AP?

[Bard]

Makes sense to me.

[Elthas_Belthasar]

I have some concerns with all of this.

I did opt into the initial pilot program but I didn't think this would be the end result.

I guess my question is do I -have- to now participate in this system? Meaning, do we get a choice in this matter?

I have a serious beef with having to pay for judgments. I'm almost certain someone else has voice their concerns about this matter.

I am a veteran Althanas writer, and I feel that having an extra step to get judgments will only hurt Althanas in the long term.

Maybe I'm alone here, maybe not.

But now that I've -seen- what the new system is maturing into...I don't like it.

Is there a way I can opt out of the AP program all together?

And no I do not intend to give the current system a chance.

My concern is that people have to "earn" basically a phoney currency to get judgments types that were previously free in all other versions of Althanas.

If I am not being given a choice in the AP program system then I'm not going to participate in it.

Further, if it has to be that I pick no judgments from here on in, so be it.

For the guys that made this system the new norm...I'm deeply concerned about the way Althanas will evolve after this.

Anyway that's my two cents take it as you will.

In the future, ask people in general before you guys shove a system like this down people's throats.