EU Referendum

[Philomel]

So I am very sorry to annouce that we have suffered the loss of the EU...

And probably the UK itself.

Basically the UK did a (in my opinion) stupid thing and voted itself out. That is England and Wales did, Scotland (and I mean the WHOLE of Scotland) voted to remain.

The only good thing that might come from this is a second Independence Referendum for Scotland.

Oh and Cameron, British Prime Minister, is to step down by October.

[Tobias Stalt]

I'm excited for the UK. Step one on the road to Economic Freedom.

Of course, they have to follow through to make good on it.

[Flames of Hyperion]

The economy, frankly, is the least of my priorities. Both sides made spurious and in some cases borderline fantastical claims that bore no basis in reality for normal, working people.

It's nothing short of shameful that Brexit, combined with what Theresa May's already done to immigration laws, will tear (and is already tearing) British families apart.

And although I realise that almost nobody who voted for Leave or Independence really cares about this, I fear what the loss of EU funding and expertise will do to the life-saving, future-facing science done at British universities. If Scotland were to leave the UK as well (remember that there's no guarantee that the EU will allow us to stay, even if we do part ways with England and Wales), then things look deathly bleak for the world-leading research done here.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

The economy, frankly, is the least of my priorities. Both sides made spurious and in some cases borderline fantastical claims that bore no basis in reality for normal, working people.

It's nothing short of shameful that Brexit, combined with what Theresa May's already done to immigration laws, will tear (and is already tearing) British families apart.

And although I realise that almost nobody who voted for Leave or Independence really cares about this, I fear what the loss of EU funding and expertise will do to the life-saving, future-facing science done at British universities. If Scotland were to leave the UK as well (remember that there's no guarantee that the EU will allow us to stay, even if we do part ways with England and Wales), then things look deathly bleak for the world-leading research done here.

Hard to argue with any of that.

[Cards of Fate]

Freindly reminder to keep things civil! People have their opinions, and we should respect that!

[Philomel]

Granted everyone does have their opinion. There will be a lot od economic problems though, because our economy is so tied in with Europe's - meaning this will be so messy to organise the break. If we do it right it has a possibility of going well, but it is a very rocky road now.

Confession: I am a pretty left-wing green-voting socialist, something pretty common in Scotland though I know its less common in the USA so apologies if my views offend.

[SirArtemis]

Phil, I'd label myself the same and I'm in the US so you can understand my sad when I see it as Hillary vs Trump. Harumph. At the end of the day the global economy is inextricably tied together and whatever deals you make about official lables matters less than the reality that we've globally pegged ourselves to one another in a way that when one falls we all do.

[Lye]

I find that rather shocking. That's a bold move to make for one of the primary European nations. It'd be like the US voting themselves off the UN.

Then again, I'm pretty severed from politics and have an admittedly poor pool of reference for any of my statements. Still, it sounds like a poor decision made by people in positions of power they should not have.

[Max Dirks]

I feel like the relationship between Britain and the EU has been strained since the 1990's anyway. They never adopted the Euro, maintained independent trade agreements with the U.S. and others, and had stricter immigration laws than the mainland members (rejected the Schengen Agreement). I'm actually surprised you, Gnarl and Shin are surprised Britain voted to leave, Philomel.

[Storm Veritas]

There seems to be an alignment between those in favor of the Brexit and those who favor Trump. One interpretation is increased immigration security, more free market capability to adapt and independence on matters of economic and travel-borne policy. The other interpretation is a rise in secularism, racism, and an indifference to failing economies in Europe which will very likely crash (specifically Northern Ireland, Greece, and Spain), having a ripple effect on the global economy.

Ironically, Trump visited Scotland and tweeted his congratulations on their decision to leave the EU. Scotland, for their part, voted to remain in the EU by a very wide margin (63% to 36% or so). The tweets coming back at Trump were incredible.

[jdd2035]

The thing is the business cycle will continue, the nations that can not adapt to this change will naturally go into an economic decline and those that can adapt will prosper but decline or prosperity the business cycle will continue.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

I feel like the relationship between Britain and the EU has been strained since the 1990's anyway. They never adopted the Euro, maintained independent trade agreements with the U.S. and others, and had stricter immigration laws than the mainland members (rejected the Schengen Agreement). I'm actually surprised you, Gnarl and Shin are surprised Britain voted to leave, Philomel.

The strained relationship wasn't quite as strained as everyone was led to believe. The pro-EU attitudes were very much a product of our generation. On the economic side, every single respected economist and financial institution of note warned us of what would happen if we left. I, for one, was quite happy with Europe but instead some racist 55 year old from Barnsley voting to "keep the muslims out" (his words, for those who have me on Facebook check my wall) spoke for me and for our kids.

What pisses me off are that some of the people who led us down this path now say they regret this decision (which is irreversable by principle).

[Ruby]

“It’s a funny old world.”

Ruby’s flippant expressionism bounced around the greenhouse like a thunderbolt.

Leopold, knee deep in compost, looked up. Surprised to find his wife out of bed before 7am, he met her gaze with a warm, but confused smile.

“Oh. Hello dearest. Yes. Rather is.” He straightened his back with a click, rested a boot on the blade of his shovel, and tried to make himself presentable.

The merchant found solace in his garden. In it, he felt at peace. In it, he felt uncontested. Ruby discovered early in their marriage that it was not a place she was welcome, lest the status quo between them crack, crumble, and crash.

“I know, I know. I said I would not bother you here unless somebody was dying.”

Leopold narrowed his gaze, shrew like and full of sudden contempt. Her flippant nature always lead him into a false sense of security. That sense blew wide open when the earth swallowed him up, called to duty to some world-breaking event or another.

“Am I going to need a drink?”

Ruby nodded. “Oh. Indubitably.”

Trudging over his flowerbed, featuring roses from the four corners, Leopold approached his other (questionably better of late), half. They exchanged a brief hug, which caused her nose to wrinkle at the smell of soil and sweat, and then walked side by side into the mansion’s ample kitchen.

“Who is it?”

The temperature dropped as they entered the house, for which the spell singer was grateful.

“Nationhood.”

[Fez_The_Kid]

You guys should take a look at this, if you haven't already:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

[jdd2035]

Well, you can do one of two things. One: you can work to help the UK and make the pound strong again, or two: you can do nothing and let your country fall.

[Christoph]

Well, you can do one of two things. One: you can work to help the UK and make the pound strong again, or two: you can do nothing and let your country fall.

Or three: Call those who disagree with you racists. :D

[Warpath]

By the numbers: http://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12029786/brexit-uk-eu-immigration-xenophobia

I don't actually believe it will happen unless the EU forces it to. The amount of politics that need to get done to legally complete the move are astounding, in a time when the western world is more divided than ever across party lines. Nothing will get done, someone will find some excuse to keep Britain in the EU despite the vote.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

By the numbers: http://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12029786/brexit-uk-eu-immigration-xenophobia

I don't actually believe it will happen unless the EU forces it to. The amount of politics that need to get done to legally complete the move are astounding, in a time when the western world is more divided than ever across party lines. Nothing will get done, someone will find some excuse to keep Britain in the EU despite the vote.

As soon as Article 50 of the treaty is invoked, that's it. The EU cannot legally do anything about Britain's EU membership until our Prime Minister sorts that out. Until Article 50 is triggered, we're in. No ifs, no buts.

Technically, there could still be a number of outcomes. The referendum is essentially just an opinion poll. MP's still have to vote on the referendum to pass it, and it will be down to them to make a decision on whether or not we leave. On one hand, if they block the result then democracy is dead. On the other, it may just be the best thing for the country. I am in the unenvious position of being for democracy and against us leaving the EU, but to me the upholding of the people's will is paramount.

We have to decide on a new Prime Minister in October. Nothing will happen until then as no-one has any authority to do so.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Or three: Call those who disagree with you racists. :D

Racists? No.

Irresponsible? Yes, according to every notable financial institution and reputable economist.

Do you know that 67% of those who voted leave were between 55 and 65? That means that our future, and my kid's future, are being decided by a generation of people who won't be around long enough to witness the consequences of their vote?

Does anyone here believe that is fair, when the margins for out vs in were 52% to 48%?

You'll of course say "yes, because it's a democracy" but if we had that vote 5 or 10 years later we'd still be in the EU.

Also, though I do believe that most leavers voting because of immigration have jumped on the easiest issue (despite completely ignoring the actual figures and facts publicly available) and aren't all racists, I have to point out I myself have seen extremely racist elements in the Leave campaign. One of them is a client of mine who joked about building a KKK snowman on his front lawn out of boredom. Another is a 55 year old from Barnsley who thinks that we should "stop all the muslims coming in" (despite the fact that most immigration problems in the UK stem from immigration outside the EU).

I'm a fair man, and on balance I believe that of all the people I know who voted out, about half were due to some form of immigration issue. That doesn't mean that all Leave voters are racist, but they at the least seriously misunderstand the immigration figures and how much actual migration happens from Europe.

Boy, i'm glad that these people spoke for me.

Regardless, if there is any democracy, they'll invoke Article 50 and get it done.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Just in case no-one noticed, I feel very strongly about this. I tend to keep politically quiet but I am consumed by a molten, white hot rage about the result of the referendum so it's probably best I don't contribute to this thread anymore.:p

Oh. By the way, you all need to see this:

Yes, this happened. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDdLxTXBaAY)

[Flames of Hyperion]

Shin, just to say that I appreciate you taking the time to make those points (which I feel very strongly about as well), and that I mostly agree with you. I personally believe that a 2% majority on a 72% turnout isn't as clear a mandate as some of our politicians are making it out to be, but that might count as crying over spilt eggs.

I just feel the need to add that I'm thoroughly ashamed of the unthinking bigotry and ignorance displayed by some of our voters (the video you linked to may or may not be fake, but some of those who voted Leave have indeed explicitly stated that they didn't know what they were voting for / had voted Leave on 'false premises'), and especially of the reports of racist violence coming out of our country today.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Shin, just to say that I appreciate you taking the time to make those points (which I feel very strongly about as well), and that I mostly agree with you. I personally believe that a 2% majority on a 72% turnout isn't as clear a mandate as some of our politicians are making it out to be, but that might count as crying over spilt eggs.

I just feel the need to add that I'm thoroughly ashamed of the unthinking bigotry and ignorance displayed by some of our voters (the video you linked to may or may not be fake, but some of those who voted Leave have indeed explicitly stated that they didn't know what they were voting for / had voted Leave on 'false premises'), and especially of the reports of racist violence coming out of our country today.

Hit the nail on the head there, Flames. I've seen some disturbing media coverage of Polish people getting yelled at in the street and having racist literature posted through the door.

Of course, to those who it inconveniences, it never happened.

Seriously considering a move to Scotland before you inevitably go independant. The only country to have any bloody sense.

[jdd2035]

All right Shin, sounds like you're pretty pro immigration, that's a good thing. If it weren't for immigration a lot of people would not be able to escape tyrants. But tell me this, can you tell me which immigrant is part of the ISIS? What immigrant has actually been given a mission to bomb a subway unload a weapon in a bar full of people? What immigrant has smuggled in some sort of chemical, biological or nuclear substance, weapon, or drugs?

The people that are getting let in are from nations that have factions that have declared you as their enemies and have stated in no uncertain terms that they will sneak in their own people in through the refugee and immigration systems. It would be responsible for the politicians not to try and prevent their citizens from being harmed.

I don't mind people visiting my house but only when I let them visit.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

All right Shin, sounds like you're pretty pro immigration, that's a good thing. If it weren't for immigration a lot of people would not be able to escape tyrants. But tell me this, can you tell me which immigrant is part of the ISIS? What immigrant has actually been given a mission to bomb a subway unload a weapon in a bar full of people? What immigrant has smuggled in some sort of chemical, biological or nuclear substance, weapon, or drugs?

The people that are getting let in are from nations that have factions that have declared you as their enemies and have stated in no uncertain terms that they will sneak in their own people in through the refugee and immigration systems. It would be responsible for the politicians not to try and prevent their citizens from being harmed.

I don't mind people visiting my house but only when I let them visit.

Agreed, but we have to accept there will be risks with immigration. It's up to our security services to do the spade work to ensure that they can monitor as many threats as they can, and not up to us to persecute.

I'm more of an advocate of sensible immigration. That means not being xenophobic but also not allowing people from all countries to come over on a benefits holiday. Sadly the latter is more of a problem to us than any terrorism. It's no longer just the physical threat but also the generic hate and rhetoric that is created towards immigrants that spoil it for the majority who come here and try to do the right thing. People are looking at lazy benefit cheats (we have some homegrown ones too to be fair) and thinking "that must be ALL immigrants".

Today we have seen Polish people shouted at in the street, the same Polish people who work their fingers to the bone in our very short staffed fruit picking industries. Just as an example.

I would rather have a Polish guy working for me than a Brit. True story.

[Storm Veritas]

As an American, I feel like the borders / ISIS argument has been made here for years, and it's a futile effort. Here in the States, there have been multiple terrorist attacks (Boston, San Bernadino, Orlando) through fully naturalized citizens that could never be screened out without a full blockade. Boston was launched by Eastern Bloc people who only YEARS after full immigration announced ties to terrorism. San Bernadino was set off by muslims who showed no radical tendencies for YEARS before their workplace outbreak. Orlando was launched by a man who was not religious during his life, and only seemed to tie his attack to ISIS for attention and to raise the level of hysteria around a very horrible, concentrated attack on the LBGT community.

In short, fighting terrorism in 2016 is whack-a-mole, and you can't legislate ISIS away. I could argue we've been in the midst of World War III for 15 years, and it's not going to end soon. Attacking a single country won't help, and no single country can destroy this horrible threat while other warring or sympathetic countries will provide shelter (see Pakistan during the US invasion of Afghanistan as an example). Only a concerted effort by the WORLD at large will ever stop ISIS, and this secularization sought by Britain and the republican half of the US are big steps in the wrong direction.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

As an American, I feel like the borders / ISIS argument has been made here for years, and it's a futile effort. Here in the States, there have been multiple terrorist attacks (Boston, San Bernadino, Orlando) through fully naturalized citizens that could never be screened out without a full blockade. Boston was launched by Eastern Bloc people who only YEARS after full immigration announced ties to terrorism. San Bernadino was set off by muslims who showed no radical tendencies for YEARS before their workplace outbreak. Orlando was launched by a man who was not religious during his life, and only seemed to tie his attack to ISIS for attention and to raise the level of hysteria around a very horrible, concentrated attack on the LBGT community.

In short, fighting terrorism in 2016 is whack-a-mole, and you can't legislate ISIS away. I could argue we've been in the midst of World War III for 15 years, and it's not going to end soon. Attacking a single country won't help, and no single country can destroy this horrible threat while other warring or sympathetic countries will provide shelter (see Pakistan during the US invasion of Afghanistan as an example). Only a concerted effort by the WORLD at large will ever stop ISIS, and this secularization sought by Britain and the republican half of the US are big steps in the wrong direction.

Sadly Britain is made up of people who, for some reason, just don't get it.

I'm not saying everyone voted out because of immigration, but the large majority did. Others thought there would be economic benefits, others wanted not to have to bow to EU rules (some of which are admittedly ridiculous). However it still remains the case that the majority wanted to stem the free movement of immigrants from the EU and, as you've pointed out, it's all rather futile.

We might as well have voted out because we didn't like the colour of Angela Merkel's gimp suit. It's about as legitimate a reason as any of the others i've heard.

(It's black with silver studs, by the way, for those wondering)

[Tobias Stalt]

Democracy is the great lie in which the state gives its people the delusion that their opinion carries true weight.

If the majority didn't speak for you, and you are unsatisfied with the outcome, you're not the victim of racists, bigots, fools, or imbeciles, you're victims of the same broken system you vaunted in the first place. All the while you're crossing your fingers with the hope an even bigger government than the one that allowed you a voice quashes the final outcome and forces you into subjugation.

There is no tyranny greater than the one man inflicts upon himself.

[Christoph]

As an American, UK's membership status in the EU isn't my decision. That said, I understand why many voters in the UK don't like the idea of foreign bureaucrats passing down edicts that supersede British laws and may or may not have the UK's best interests in mind. Additionally, this vitriol toward older voters who supported Leave is silly. Does anyone honestly think old Brits got together and were like, "You know what would really f*&k up the youth?" It might sound crazy, but maybe the older generations just have more wisdom and experience.

Beyond that, I can't really discuss the issue in detail. I'm not in the UK nor Europe and I'm certainly not an expert on globalist economics. Granted, were I a betting man, I'd wager that most of the turbulence in the markets surrounding Brexit will sort itself out soon enough, if it hasn't already.

[Warpath]

It might sound crazy, but maybe the older generations just have more wisdom and experience.

Or maybe more irrational fear

[Philomel]

When people as me why I voted Remain I send them this video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA)

Also facts by Martin Lewis. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwRmz7kQIhc) Important thing to note that he makes a very big thing about no one knows what will happen if we leave.

For those commenting on the Britain is free-er thing, it deals with all the rights and things that the EU (and linked to that UN) decleration of human rights deals with. In Britain I will say politics is very different than in the USA, just please be aware that we come from a very different culture. We like our stricter gun laws (in general, I believe made after the Dunblane shooting), and the fact that our economy, laws, culture and history is so entangled into the EU then it is mental to break from the EU. It would be like the USA trying to break from the UN or NATO. Yes, tha tmay seem like a strange comparison to some, but it is that serious. Everything about our laws and history, going back to the mediaeval ages and before links to Europe, and all the various trade agreements. We made the EU in the aftermath of the second world war to prevent more giant wars like it...

Okay there is my small rant. I am not saying those who voted leave are bigots and racists, in general I do not think the vast majority of them knew what they voted for. They were coerced through the likes of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson to vote for it, similar to how I imagine why so many people are voting for a man like Trump.

[Tobias Stalt]

I don't know about you, but I'd like it if the US broke away from NATO. In fact, legislation around that came up in March of last year.

[Christoph]

Well, some might argue in favor of the United States leaving NATO. (EDIT: Ninja'd by Tobi.) After all, we spend way more money supporting it than any other member country. Sort of like how wealthier countries in the EU throw their money at propping up failed states like Greece. Could an argument be made that membership in both organizations provides benefits to make membership worth it despite these downsides? Maybe, maybe not. It's important not to disregard those downsides, though.

In any case, I wouldn't get too caught up in the doom and gloom. Leaving the EU doesn't mean the UK will never have any relationships with European countries again. They're not vacating the whole continent (though that would be an interesting geological trick). Even if Brexit turns out to be a bad idea, it wouldn't be the first time a Western country voted for a bad idea. You folks will survive just fine.

[Hysteria]

Scottland might block the exit. Or perhaps leave the UK and join the EU zone independently.

[Christoph]

That would be interesting. I'm curious how many of the people who voted for Scotland to secede also voted for Brexit, and vise versa.

[Gum]

lol, immigrants. the very notion that poor people from place A coming to place B are the reason things suck is utterly absurd! how can poor people dehumanise other poor people? like what on earth. in what reality are the world's powerLESS more responsible for society's problems than the powerFUL are??? wat lol. and dehumanising immigrants, wow lol. let's think about what we consider very human things... loving your family and wanting the best for them? seems human enough to me. that's what immigrants want to do. rigging the game so the rich win and the poor lose? seems pretty inhuman to me! people need to GET WOKE and dehumanise shitty politicians and their black slapping buddies the 1%!

i think that national boundaries are a fundamental injustice. poor people are born onto a planet where all the space has been divided up already, and more than that, you're not allowed to even visit the places that were claimed by so and so or such and such hundreds of years before your birth? that's heartbreaking. we live short lives and can't even live them with peace and freedom. nationalism is an ugly concoction by the powerful to fool the powerless into hating their natural allies, i.e. the other powerless people of the world. and nationalism is what makes bullshit borders feel real, when of course they're not lol.

shh, here's the saddest secret of them all: there's a kinda strong argument that immigration grows an economy. lolololol.

sad af.

p.s. that's not to say i think remain would've been the right decision. NOR LEAVE MIND LOL. i think the decision was DEFINITELY made for the wrong reason. reason being xenophobia. but it might turn out to be the right decision one day in the future. i don't like ruling from afar. i'm for whatever independence movement you've got: scottish, basque, catalan, whatever else.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

That would be interesting. I'm curious how many of the people who voted for Scotland to secede also voted for Brexit, and vise versa.

The overwhelming majority of those who want independence from the UK want to remain in the EU.

[Christoph]

The overwhelming majority of those who want independence from the UK want to remain in the EU.
Do you have a source for that? Not calling you out or anything -- just curious.


Gum: I'd argue that national borders serve a valuable function. After all, a family has the right to decide who they want in their house. Likewise, a country should be able to decide who they do and don't want immigrating into their country. Most people aren't opposed to all immigration, simply to illegal or otherwise uncontrolled immigration. If a country doesn't want a ton of immigrants dependent on the welfare state or who have values some would see as anathema to modern western values (values like gender equality and gay rights, for instance), that is their right.

Also, keep in mind that not all rich people (even the "1%") are wealthy because they screwed someone else over, and on the flip side, not all poor people are poor because someone else screwed them over. In reality, those are the exceptions rather than the rule, at least in my observations and experiences.

[Gum]

christoph, i totally respect everything you've said and i think that how you feel about it is way more realistic. but for me, honestly, the way i feel about it might not be very realistic and i'm cool with that lol. i still feel that way. despite the fact that, in current context, what i'm saying is borderline ridiculous. i don't want to think compromises are okay when it comes to suffering any more. so i have some responses, but i'm not saying that i think you're wrong, i'm saying that i think differently about each point.


a country should be able to decide who they do and don't want immigrating into their country.
nobody controls their parents' decision to bring them into the world and they don't control where they're born. why should movement be restricted?


uncontrolled immigration
push/pull factors could be used to let immigration control itself without the use of nationalism or xenophobia. most people don't leave the place they were born. why would they? their family and friends are there. some people might decide to move, you're right about that (myself included). some might decide to move in large numbers to the same place because it's very attractive. and again, you're right that that might negatively affect said destination. and in time, it becomes less attractive and then somewhere else becomes attractive. and so it goes. and you know, my neighbourhood might suck because the population grew and culture changed. but for me, how i feel about it, i think that keeping people captive within borders is a greater evil than my backyard getting crapped on. and you know what, population can grow because of migration and copulation within national borders. so, it's kinda whatever to me.


welfare state
planet earth has more than enough for everybody. some drastic changes would need to be made to unlock the potential of the planet, but why not be idealistic? it's like that pitbull lyric, if you reach for the stars and miss at least you'll be on top of the world #positivity ;D


gender equality and gay rights
if a person violates somebody else's rights then punish them. i wouldn't want it to be connected with immigration policy because where you come from doesn't limit your capacity for compassion. you're right that certain cultures, unfortunately, don't value women's rights and sexuality related rights as highly as they should. but you have to give the individual the chance first.


keep in mind that not all rich people (even the "1%") are wealthy because they screwed someone else over
that's kinda the parallel point to how not all immigrants are going to hold back gender and sexuality progression in the west. i'm deffo generalising, sure. but if i was to say, oh x is the defining issue here, then i'd say it's wealth inequality. and the haves have it. it being power. the have nots, don't have it. so i suppose my point is, if the powerful aren't responsible enough to use their power responsibly then why should the have nots let them have that power?

and i sound like a socialist, but i really don't identify as one. if you want to solve wealth inequality with libertarianism, wonderful. if you want to solve wealth inequality with bernie sanders and the scandie way of doing things, that's great too. it's whatever. but it has to be solved.

and like i'm sorry, i've taken off on a total tangent. bringing it back to the EU/UK thing, i'm not judging the leave voters too harshly because even though they might have bought into a hateful message (xenophobia or w/e), they're voting because they're unhappy with the status quo. if government and business, as interconnected as they are now, aren't helping normal people, then normal people are going to flip their shit and do desperate things like leave the EU lol or elect donald trump or whatever you have. it's all the same problem and it's sad :<

we're also in this POST TRUTH era which doesn't help lol

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Do you have a source for that? Not calling you out or anything -- just curious.


Gum: I'd argue that national borders serve a valuable function. After all, a family has the right to decide who they want in their house. Likewise, a country should be able to decide who they do and don't want immigrating into their country. Most people aren't opposed to all immigration, simply to illegal or otherwise uncontrolled immigration. If a country doesn't want a ton of immigrants dependent on the welfare state or who have values some would see as anathema to modern western values (values like gender equality and gay rights, for instance), that is their right.

Also, keep in mind that not all rich people (even the "1%") are wealthy because they screwed someone else over, and on the flip side, not all poor people are poor because someone else screwed them over. In reality, those are the exceptions rather than the rule, at least in my observations and experiences.

Every piece of major statistical analysis in the British media for a start, as well as the actual voting demographics of the recent referendum and it generally also just being common knowledge over here. I'll link the main ones up later but i'm sure Philomel will confirm too as this is her particular geographical area.

[Philomel]

There is some stuff, and I can post it up later but I don't want to turn this into propeganda.

[Christoph]

It's no big deal. I was just curious as to if there were some well-documented numbers for that.

[Hysteria]

It's no big deal. I was just curious as to if there were some well-documented numbers for that.

I'm interested too. I've heard a few commentators saying that one of the reasons Scotland stayed in the UK was because it meant staying in the EU and pointed to campaign material in the stay group to that effect.

Of course Scotland could have another vote and leave in order to get into the EU.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Just to backtrack a little, anyone doubting the racism involved should perhaps watch this.

This video was taken in my home city of Manchester. I have used that same tram many times and for the majority of the time it has been trouble free.

Man racially abused on tram in Manchester UK (https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153852069876939/)

For the record I would have happily sorted that little prick out.

[Christoph]

That's terrible, of course, but judging an entire group based on the actions of a few cherry-picked douchebags doesn't make the other side much better. >_> There has been documented cases of Leave supporters receiving abuse, as well. I'll have to find them when I get home tonight. Humans are just jerks in general.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Agree with you Stoph, but just to clarify, I am not accusing Leave of blanket racism but just simply highlighting what I believe to be examples that are fair and representitive of the issue. That clip is one of many I could link, I just simply do not have the time. After all, how am I supposed to make my argument without credible examples? With this particular case being so close to home I can relate to it and prove that these feelings are being demonstrated not a million miles from me.

The fact remains that a portion - not all - of the leave campaign is fuelled by racism and xenophobia. That's a fact, not something i've made up. The media aren't making it up either. It's more widespread than people are willing to believe, especially those who (I mean this respectfully) live in other countries and aren't amongst the thick of it, but I also agree there is shit behaviour on both sides. The problem is there is a lot more going on in both respects than is being reported.

Also you are right, we shouldn't tar all the other side with the same brush, but to ignore this behaviour from those who are causing trouble is the height of ignorance and the reason people will stop taking us seriously. The Leave guys are fed up of it too - it's making them look bad. A collegue of mine who voted out has had nothing but bad feelings about his vote because he now feels he'll be branded a racist. Incorrectly of course. I have a few friends in the same boat and I feel sorry for them. But sadly I personally know of at least three people who have said to me that they want "the pakis out". Pakistan isn't even in the EU for fucks sake!

You probably don't know this but there are some horrendous reports going around about the mauling of an 11 year old Polish boy who got battered and a whole polish community who had hate mail and glossy literature posted through their doors. A WHOLE community. That wasn't the work of one guy in a nazi bat suit at midnight, that's an organised group.

It all just needs to stop. Let's all go to Pizza Hut or something.

[Philomel]

Okay after looking at some numbers its inconclusive really as to the lines between Scottish Independence and the EU Referendum. There cannot be much drawn from things.

What has been said, however, is that the Scotland that exists now is very different to the one of the Indyref (independence vote) in 2014. In general Scotland is unanomous, everyone who I know and have talked to voted remain apart from a couple who did it for personal reasons.

Nicola Sturgeon, our great queen/first minister has said a second Independence vote is likely now and that folk like "the author JK Rowling, who voted against independence, has implied she may now rethink her position." The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/alex-salmond-second-scottish-independence-referendum-is-certain)

What is interesting to note is that less percentage of people voted in Scotland for the EU Referendum than did for the Indyref, (but then that included 16 year olds):

"There were 3,987,112 people eligible to vote in Scotland at this election but only 67.2% did.
When Scotland went to the polls for the Scottish independence referendum 20 months ago, voters were more keen to have their say.
Almost 85% of the electorate took part." BBC facts (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36614284)

According to a recent poll though, 59% of Scots are now in favour of Scottish Independence. (Evidence (http://www.scotsman.com/news/poll-puts-support-for-scottish-independence-at-59-1-4163338)) So basically it can't be said for sure that those who voted Yes in the Indyref voted Remain (seriously the results are very mixed) BUT the face of Scottish politics changed majorly dramatically in the last election. Basically the vast majority of Scotland in the general election 2015 voted SNP which is historic. Traditional labour seats and conservative seats are now SNP. Here is evidence for that. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results/scotland)

[Philomel]

It can be said that for some people the issue of immigration etc was a major factor in voting leave.

[Max Dirks]

A "paki" is euro trash slang for a Muslim, not a Pakistani.

The more you know!

[Max Dirks]

I'm also not fond of the overlapping of the terms xenophobia and racism by today's left. The idea that the fear of another country or another group of people is illogical and always implies racism is absurd. Is it illogical for a Pakistani to fear an Indian? What about Israeli who fears an Iranian? What about Muslim to fear a Muslim in Syria? Or a Nigerian to fear the Boko Haram? You'll note I used examples of logical fears of another country, another religion and another group of persons within a religion. Can you really look at me with a straight face and say the Pakistani's, Jews, Syrian immigrants and little girls raped and killed by the Boko Haram are racist because they're scared? If these groups are committing atrocities, it is not unreasonable to fear them, especially if you belong to the targeted group. Yes, yes, not ever member of a nation, a religion, or even a group is evil, and obviously the fears are less grounded by ginger haired protestant Brits that are protected by a waterway and one of the most invasive security networks in the world, but they are not illogical. You can be tolerant of other groups, but recognize when the government needs to intervene to protect you from those groups.

Did you forget the subway bombings? How many bombings are too much? Look what happened in Paris and Orlando. ISIS is threating attacks on London. It's up to the citizens of a country to decide. Can the EU protect Britain from them? Can Britain protect Britain from them?

Immigration is a valid concern for any nation.

[Gum]

Is it illogical for a Pakistani to fear an Indian?
that has been a mess since the british empire split british india into india, pakistan and bangladesh.


What about Israeli who fears an Iranian?
british empire again, with some help mind.


What about Muslim to fear a Muslim in Syria?
iraq invasion.


Or a Nigerian to fear the Boko Haram?
while a bit peripheral, the very fact that african national boundaries exist is because of european horror shows.


Can you really look at me with a straight face and say the Pakistani's, Jews, Syrian immigrants and little girls raped and killed by the Boko Haram are racist because they're scared?
absolutely not. it's fine to make an educated guess about the possible danger a stranger might pose when their identity opposes something fundamental about you.

but that we've gotten to the present day levels of division is by no means some kind of depressing inevitability. hatred, division and violence aren't primordial elements of the human race. they're side effects of terrible behaviour by people in power. war, violence, hatred, xenophobia etc comes from the sociopaths in charge. the real depressing inevitability is the ability for said assholes to rise to the top.

forget about how things work now and imagine how they could work in the future if we get over the divisions of the past. the ira used to bomb england when i was growing up, i imagine the manchester bombing might be on the edge of shin's memory. and that shit was fucking terrible. but you know what, the ira doesn't bomb britain any more. obviously there's still divisions there, but it's getting better. all of it can get better if we include, and eventually, love each other.

2016 is a great time to be idealistic.

p.s. and i'm not saying politicians need to form more boundaries with people included (the E bleedin U), i'm saying people everywhere need to forget letting the powerful lead us into the future and instead just be empathetic. it's simple and easy. be empathetic.

[Philomel]

Max, Paki is actually a UK term that is an insult for Pakistanis or anyone from the Indian subcontinent. As far as experience and knowledge goes it not to do with Muslims. Wikipedia and all dictionaries say this.

Sorry to be annoying, but I would know, being British. It's not much to do with Muslims. Not in the UK anyway. The European mainland might have started using it, but I've never heard it being used as a slang towards Muslims in general.

[Philomel]

And actually in terms of Isis (Daesh) bombings we're much better together, to sort it out as the EU/UN etc than alone.

I also want to add that the EU was made partially in the light of the second world war, to make sure no other atrocities happened again. As a united front we have managed to keep peace in Europe for the majority of things. I.e. not exploding the world into another world war.

My two 'Cents'.

[Max Dirks]

You should read urban dictionary then, Philomel.

[Philomel]

I have never heard of it meaning that. I would say Urban Dicitonary isn't exactly the most reliable source, but I get that it may have developed that meaning, hence it being there (I know I used Wikipedia as a source and that isn't exactly reliable also). I just know that I have only ever heard it being used as a derrogetory term for someone from the Indian Subcontinent. In my experience, i.e. from someone living in the UK where it originated, that is what I know it as:

Dictionary.com meaning. (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/paki)

Edit: Actually in urban dictionary the "top term" seems to be thus:
pakis
a rude abbreviation of the word 'pakistani'

I think in general its come to mean what you understand it as.

But hey, language is interesting. :)

[K-Zu-Ziro]

i remember in primary school, this was growing up in the liverpool area, that kids had used "paki" for anybody with even the slightest hint of brown skin all the way up to people clearly of african descent lol. in general though, phi is right about it being used for subcontinental people. but you know, ignorance being what it is, the term paki can also be a catch all term for the least informed lolol. it's an ugly, ugly, ugly word though and even seeing it discussed kinda gives me the creeps. sad times.

[Hysteria]

Edit: Actually in urban dictionary the "top term" seems to be thus:
pakis
a rude abbreviation of the word 'pakistani'

I think in general its come to mean what you understand it as.

But hey, language is interesting. :)

I've always taken it as a shortening of pakistani too.

That second post on uban dictonary names heaps of random things under the definition that fall into the 'other' category.


9. The people who my children will be fighting in a Balkan-style power struggle in the near future.

[Philomel]

I think it has become a more generalised term. I guess it is what you know it as.