EU Referendum

[Tobias Stalt]

I don't know about you, but I'd like it if the US broke away from NATO. In fact, legislation around that came up in March of last year.

[Christoph]

Well, some might argue in favor of the United States leaving NATO. (EDIT: Ninja'd by Tobi.) After all, we spend way more money supporting it than any other member country. Sort of like how wealthier countries in the EU throw their money at propping up failed states like Greece. Could an argument be made that membership in both organizations provides benefits to make membership worth it despite these downsides? Maybe, maybe not. It's important not to disregard those downsides, though.

In any case, I wouldn't get too caught up in the doom and gloom. Leaving the EU doesn't mean the UK will never have any relationships with European countries again. They're not vacating the whole continent (though that would be an interesting geological trick). Even if Brexit turns out to be a bad idea, it wouldn't be the first time a Western country voted for a bad idea. You folks will survive just fine.

[Hysteria]

Scottland might block the exit. Or perhaps leave the UK and join the EU zone independently.

[Christoph]

That would be interesting. I'm curious how many of the people who voted for Scotland to secede also voted for Brexit, and vise versa.

[Gum]

lol, immigrants. the very notion that poor people from place A coming to place B are the reason things suck is utterly absurd! how can poor people dehumanise other poor people? like what on earth. in what reality are the world's powerLESS more responsible for society's problems than the powerFUL are??? wat lol. and dehumanising immigrants, wow lol. let's think about what we consider very human things... loving your family and wanting the best for them? seems human enough to me. that's what immigrants want to do. rigging the game so the rich win and the poor lose? seems pretty inhuman to me! people need to GET WOKE and dehumanise shitty politicians and their black slapping buddies the 1%!

i think that national boundaries are a fundamental injustice. poor people are born onto a planet where all the space has been divided up already, and more than that, you're not allowed to even visit the places that were claimed by so and so or such and such hundreds of years before your birth? that's heartbreaking. we live short lives and can't even live them with peace and freedom. nationalism is an ugly concoction by the powerful to fool the powerless into hating their natural allies, i.e. the other powerless people of the world. and nationalism is what makes bullshit borders feel real, when of course they're not lol.

shh, here's the saddest secret of them all: there's a kinda strong argument that immigration grows an economy. lolololol.

sad af.

p.s. that's not to say i think remain would've been the right decision. NOR LEAVE MIND LOL. i think the decision was DEFINITELY made for the wrong reason. reason being xenophobia. but it might turn out to be the right decision one day in the future. i don't like ruling from afar. i'm for whatever independence movement you've got: scottish, basque, catalan, whatever else.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

That would be interesting. I'm curious how many of the people who voted for Scotland to secede also voted for Brexit, and vise versa.

The overwhelming majority of those who want independence from the UK want to remain in the EU.

[Christoph]

The overwhelming majority of those who want independence from the UK want to remain in the EU.

Do you have a source for that? Not calling you out or anything -- just curious.


Gum: I'd argue that national borders serve a valuable function. After all, a family has the right to decide who they want in their house. Likewise, a country should be able to decide who they do and don't want immigrating into their country. Most people aren't opposed to all immigration, simply to illegal or otherwise uncontrolled immigration. If a country doesn't want a ton of immigrants dependent on the welfare state or who have values some would see as anathema to modern western values (values like gender equality and gay rights, for instance), that is their right.

Also, keep in mind that not all rich people (even the "1%") are wealthy because they screwed someone else over, and on the flip side, not all poor people are poor because someone else screwed them over. In reality, those are the exceptions rather than the rule, at least in my observations and experiences.

[Gum]

christoph, i totally respect everything you've said and i think that how you feel about it is way more realistic. but for me, honestly, the way i feel about it might not be very realistic and i'm cool with that lol. i still feel that way. despite the fact that, in current context, what i'm saying is borderline ridiculous. i don't want to think compromises are okay when it comes to suffering any more. so i have some responses, but i'm not saying that i think you're wrong, i'm saying that i think differently about each point.

a country should be able to decide who they do and don't want immigrating into their country.

nobody controls their parents' decision to bring them into the world and they don't control where they're born. why should movement be restricted?

uncontrolled immigration

push/pull factors could be used to let immigration control itself without the use of nationalism or xenophobia. most people don't leave the place they were born. why would they? their family and friends are there. some people might decide to move, you're right about that (myself included). some might decide to move in large numbers to the same place because it's very attractive. and again, you're right that that might negatively affect said destination. and in time, it becomes less attractive and then somewhere else becomes attractive. and so it goes. and you know, my neighbourhood might suck because the population grew and culture changed. but for me, how i feel about it, i think that keeping people captive within borders is a greater evil than my backyard getting crapped on. and you know what, population can grow because of migration and copulation within national borders. so, it's kinda whatever to me.

welfare state

planet earth has more than enough for everybody. some drastic changes would need to be made to unlock the potential of the planet, but why not be idealistic? it's like that pitbull lyric, if you reach for the stars and miss at least you'll be on top of the world #positivity ;D

gender equality and gay rights

if a person violates somebody else's rights then punish them. i wouldn't want it to be connected with immigration policy because where you come from doesn't limit your capacity for compassion. you're right that certain cultures, unfortunately, don't value women's rights and sexuality related rights as highly as they should. but you have to give the individual the chance first.

keep in mind that not all rich people (even the "1%") are wealthy because they screwed someone else over

that's kinda the parallel point to how not all immigrants are going to hold back gender and sexuality progression in the west. i'm deffo generalising, sure. but if i was to say, oh x is the defining issue here, then i'd say it's wealth inequality. and the haves have it. it being power. the have nots, don't have it. so i suppose my point is, if the powerful aren't responsible enough to use their power responsibly then why should the have nots let them have that power?

and i sound like a socialist, but i really don't identify as one. if you want to solve wealth inequality with libertarianism, wonderful. if you want to solve wealth inequality with bernie sanders and the scandie way of doing things, that's great too. it's whatever. but it has to be solved.

and like i'm sorry, i've taken off on a total tangent. bringing it back to the EU/UK thing, i'm not judging the leave voters too harshly because even though they might have bought into a hateful message (xenophobia or w/e), they're voting because they're unhappy with the status quo. if government and business, as interconnected as they are now, aren't helping normal people, then normal people are going to flip their shit and do desperate things like leave the EU lol or elect donald trump or whatever you have. it's all the same problem and it's sad :<

we're also in this POST TRUTH era which doesn't help lol

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Do you have a source for that? Not calling you out or anything -- just curious.


Gum: I'd argue that national borders serve a valuable function. After all, a family has the right to decide who they want in their house. Likewise, a country should be able to decide who they do and don't want immigrating into their country. Most people aren't opposed to all immigration, simply to illegal or otherwise uncontrolled immigration. If a country doesn't want a ton of immigrants dependent on the welfare state or who have values some would see as anathema to modern western values (values like gender equality and gay rights, for instance), that is their right.

Also, keep in mind that not all rich people (even the "1%") are wealthy because they screwed someone else over, and on the flip side, not all poor people are poor because someone else screwed them over. In reality, those are the exceptions rather than the rule, at least in my observations and experiences.

Every piece of major statistical analysis in the British media for a start, as well as the actual voting demographics of the recent referendum and it generally also just being common knowledge over here. I'll link the main ones up later but i'm sure Philomel will confirm too as this is her particular geographical area.

[Philomel]

There is some stuff, and I can post it up later but I don't want to turn this into propeganda.