EU Referendum

[Christoph]

It's no big deal. I was just curious as to if there were some well-documented numbers for that.

[Hysteria]

It's no big deal. I was just curious as to if there were some well-documented numbers for that.

I'm interested too. I've heard a few commentators saying that one of the reasons Scotland stayed in the UK was because it meant staying in the EU and pointed to campaign material in the stay group to that effect.

Of course Scotland could have another vote and leave in order to get into the EU.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Just to backtrack a little, anyone doubting the racism involved should perhaps watch this.

This video was taken in my home city of Manchester. I have used that same tram many times and for the majority of the time it has been trouble free.

Man racially abused on tram in Manchester UK

For the record I would have happily sorted that little prick out.

[Christoph]

That's terrible, of course, but judging an entire group based on the actions of a few cherry-picked douchebags doesn't make the other side much better. >_> There has been documented cases of Leave supporters receiving abuse, as well. I'll have to find them when I get home tonight. Humans are just jerks in general.

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

Agree with you Stoph, but just to clarify, I am not accusing Leave of blanket racism but just simply highlighting what I believe to be examples that are fair and representitive of the issue. That clip is one of many I could link, I just simply do not have the time. After all, how am I supposed to make my argument without credible examples? With this particular case being so close to home I can relate to it and prove that these feelings are being demonstrated not a million miles from me.

The fact remains that a portion - not all - of the leave campaign is fuelled by racism and xenophobia. That's a fact, not something i've made up. The media aren't making it up either. It's more widespread than people are willing to believe, especially those who (I mean this respectfully) live in other countries and aren't amongst the thick of it, but I also agree there is shit behaviour on both sides. The problem is there is a lot more going on in both respects than is being reported.

Also you are right, we shouldn't tar all the other side with the same brush, but to ignore this behaviour from those who are causing trouble is the height of ignorance and the reason people will stop taking us seriously. The Leave guys are fed up of it too - it's making them look bad. A collegue of mine who voted out has had nothing but bad feelings about his vote because he now feels he'll be branded a racist. Incorrectly of course. I have a few friends in the same boat and I feel sorry for them. But sadly I personally know of at least three people who have said to me that they want "the pakis out". Pakistan isn't even in the EU for fucks sake!

You probably don't know this but there are some horrendous reports going around about the mauling of an 11 year old Polish boy who got battered and a whole polish community who had hate mail and glossy literature posted through their doors. A WHOLE community. That wasn't the work of one guy in a nazi bat suit at midnight, that's an organised group.

It all just needs to stop. Let's all go to Pizza Hut or something.

[Philomel]

Okay after looking at some numbers its inconclusive really as to the lines between Scottish Independence and the EU Referendum. There cannot be much drawn from things.

What has been said, however, is that the Scotland that exists now is very different to the one of the Indyref (independence vote) in 2014. In general Scotland is unanomous, everyone who I know and have talked to voted remain apart from a couple who did it for personal reasons.

Nicola Sturgeon, our great queen/first minister has said a second Independence vote is likely now and that folk like "the author JK Rowling, who voted against independence, has implied she may now rethink her position." The Guardian

What is interesting to note is that less percentage of people voted in Scotland for the EU Referendum than did for the Indyref, (but then that included 16 year olds):

"There were 3,987,112 people eligible to vote in Scotland at this election but only 67.2% did.
When Scotland went to the polls for the Scottish independence referendum 20 months ago, voters were more keen to have their say.
Almost 85% of the electorate took part." BBC facts

According to a recent poll though, 59% of Scots are now in favour of Scottish Independence. (Evidence) So basically it can't be said for sure that those who voted Yes in the Indyref voted Remain (seriously the results are very mixed) BUT the face of Scottish politics changed majorly dramatically in the last election. Basically the vast majority of Scotland in the general election 2015 voted SNP which is historic. Traditional labour seats and conservative seats are now SNP. Here is evidence for that.

[Philomel]

It can be said that for some people the issue of immigration etc was a major factor in voting leave.

[Max Dirks]

A "paki" is euro trash slang for a Muslim, not a Pakistani.

The more you know!

[Max Dirks]

I'm also not fond of the overlapping of the terms xenophobia and racism by today's left. The idea that the fear of another country or another group of people is illogical and always implies racism is absurd. Is it illogical for a Pakistani to fear an Indian? What about Israeli who fears an Iranian? What about Muslim to fear a Muslim in Syria? Or a Nigerian to fear the Boko Haram? You'll note I used examples of logical fears of another country, another religion and another group of persons within a religion. Can you really look at me with a straight face and say the Pakistani's, Jews, Syrian immigrants and little girls raped and killed by the Boko Haram are racist because they're scared? If these groups are committing atrocities, it is not unreasonable to fear them, especially if you belong to the targeted group. Yes, yes, not ever member of a nation, a religion, or even a group is evil, and obviously the fears are less grounded by ginger haired protestant Brits that are protected by a waterway and one of the most invasive security networks in the world, but they are not illogical. You can be tolerant of other groups, but recognize when the government needs to intervene to protect you from those groups.

Did you forget the subway bombings? How many bombings are too much? Look what happened in Paris and Orlando. ISIS is threating attacks on London. It's up to the citizens of a country to decide. Can the EU protect Britain from them? Can Britain protect Britain from them?

Immigration is a valid concern for any nation.

[Gum]

Is it illogical for a Pakistani to fear an Indian?

that has been a mess since the british empire split british india into india, pakistan and bangladesh.

What about Israeli who fears an Iranian?

british empire again, with some help mind.

What about Muslim to fear a Muslim in Syria?

iraq invasion.

Or a Nigerian to fear the Boko Haram?

while a bit peripheral, the very fact that african national boundaries exist is because of european horror shows.

Can you really look at me with a straight face and say the Pakistani's, Jews, Syrian immigrants and little girls raped and killed by the Boko Haram are racist because they're scared?

absolutely not. it's fine to make an educated guess about the possible danger a stranger might pose when their identity opposes something fundamental about you.

but that we've gotten to the present day levels of division is by no means some kind of depressing inevitability. hatred, division and violence aren't primordial elements of the human race. they're side effects of terrible behaviour by people in power. war, violence, hatred, xenophobia etc comes from the sociopaths in charge. the real depressing inevitability is the ability for said assholes to rise to the top.

forget about how things work now and imagine how they could work in the future if we get over the divisions of the past. the ira used to bomb england when i was growing up, i imagine the manchester bombing might be on the edge of shin's memory. and that shit was fucking terrible. but you know what, the ira doesn't bomb britain any more. obviously there's still divisions there, but it's getting better. all of it can get better if we include, and eventually, love each other.

2016 is a great time to be idealistic.

p.s. and i'm not saying politicians need to form more boundaries with people included (the E bleedin U), i'm saying people everywhere need to forget letting the powerful lead us into the future and instead just be empathetic. it's simple and easy. be empathetic.