Power Group Discussion

[Shinsou Vaan Osiris]

As part of the ongoing process of improving the site, one of the areas being earmarked for a refurbishment is the fabled Power Group feature.

For those of you who aren't sure, Power Groups on Althanas are the same as clans and guilds (forum here). You create a faction with like-minded members and work as a team in whatever way you see fit, either battling other power groups or questing together. Some power groups are evil, some are good and some are mixed.

Over the years I feel the PG function has been both underused and somewhat neglected, and I would like to at least make an effort to see if we can breathe some life into the old dog.

What I would like you, as our glorious member base, to do is to tell me what you like about the PG system and what you would improve. If you have any suggestions that may help to increase the experience, we'd like to hear them too. These posts will help to build a foundation for an "overhaul proposal" that I'll put to the administration team, so if you see something you like from another user please "second" it.

Please note that I'd like to keep the topic as positive as possible and criticism to a constructive and helpful level.

[Mutant_Lorenor]

As someone who has seen many Power Groups come and go...I think part of the initial problem with the system is user interest.

Being that you can't -make- someone rp or post or whatever a lot of potentially really good Power Groups have died down from their initial net worth.

I think it's not necessarily anything that we can do incentive wise to get people to participate or not. As it stands, my own character(s) (With the exception of Lorenor) are guild-less. Elthas lead a guild for a short while, but Lorenor remains affiliated to the now dead Ixian Knights. As it stands, I have honestly thought about reviving the Ixians but I am not certain how Tony and some of the other veteran members of the site would feel about that. Anyhow, here are my personal thoughts on Power Groups and a few other matters regarding Althanas.

I strongly believe, and have -always- felt, that part of the problem is lack of sincere interest.

There seems to be in my (Opinion) and keep in mind that I don't think -everybody- is guilty of this. But rather, I have largely found myself doing this somewhat of late too. I post fairly infrequently considering how much I used to post. I think there's a disconnect between what the powers that be on the site WANT versus what WE GOT. Half the site doesn't post.

Let's be real about this.

Half the bloody site doesn't post.

I make it a point to post a few times a week and keep up with the threads I am currently in. I know me personally, I work a lot on site and I try to keep up with my posting. The lack of posting in general has also affected if Power Groups become successful or not. So here's how I feel. Put Power Groups on hold for a little bit, give them a break and wait for the site to get much more active core base. I don't even consider myself super active, but like, I DO post. I'm trying to pick up my own personal activity level too but even then...(And this is coming from the heart) I wouldn't want to burden a potentially hyper successful Power Group's...well...success because I personally take long posting or whatever.

And therein is the disconnect.

In the attempt to remain fair to anybody, you can't make people post. However, you can provide more and more (Which you guys of the Moderator/Staff team have been doing) dynamic events that effect lore and what not. As a veteran member I often find myself explaining to newer members site lore and stuff, and trying to fill in the gaps where there are matters I personally know very little about.

Keep in mind I do try to give people correct information, but this is also something that needs to be addressed. When it comes to Power Groups, the site's wiki, and our own user base, the site needs quite a bit of improvement. From the outside looking in, I can see how the site is very intimidating with it's vast lore and admittedly frustrating lack of it in some cases.

I personally blame the original two site "crashes/restarts" for parts of this problem.

I have long since felt that site restarts (We all had to restart from level 0 at the time like twice that I recall) are NOT necessary.

But I digress. Back to the issue of Power Groups, I think that people have to produce sincerely interesting concepts and ideas. There needs to be LESS (That's right I said it) LESS restrictions on Power Groups basic concepts and what not. The Grand Guild idea that Kyle (Taskmeinster) once proposed was a really good idea that just needed a lot more development. There should be an underlying -reason- for Adventurers/Heroes/Villains/whatever to team up and form a group.

Think of it like this.

If you're a Hero on some world what would be the LEGITIMATE IC benefit for you to team up with some other person or groups of persons? For example, there should be a reason. Like part of my BIG problems with the site (And this is my own opinion, again) is when major Villain mechanics are introduced. This all has to do with the larger interest of the player base, but I think that there needs to be more incentive for players (Most of us lowbies) who are lower level to stop said Villains.

What I want to see, is more organized site events that -require- Power Group involvement.

For example, Xem'Zund (Keep in mind I always thought the character was cool) was a cop out bad guy. I know some of this is harsh and may seem like attacking or whatever, but that's really not my intention. I just am trying to formulate a legit discussion and debate about these matters. The reason I called Xem'Zund a cop-out was because that specific event (Letho, and several others of the site's high-level players) participated. There was VERY LITTLE involvement with lowbies in the events that revolved around the destruction of Xem'Zund.

Now again, I realize that this is all having to do with the issue of interest, and user participation.

My main point is if you guys are going to seriously pursue more Power Group overhauls, then here's a few suggestions.

1-Integrate Site events into the Power Group Lore.

2-Integrate Boss/Special Enemy mechanics that Power Groups have to rise up to and team up/potentially stop one another to defeat or even team up with. (The Boss enemies for example)

3-Ease up on complicated Power Group jargon.

4-Ease up on restrictive rules/regulations that limit what Power Groups can and cannot do.

5-Allow people to have FUN again.

I feel that complex systems on site prevent players from having TRUE fun. So that's really my suggestions/rant/whatever on this matter. I know this post might offend some people but I don't really care this is something I have felt strongly about for a long time. For me the Ixian Knight's IC event that lead to their destruction was forced and contrived. But yeah again, I digress. I hope you guys can (At least some of yall fellow vet's) understand what I'm saying here. We don't need MORE rules and complication on site, we need easier to understand rules, more set in stone stuff, and easier to digest lore.

With that I think I'm gonna close up around here.

Stay cool gang,
~Pav

[Storm Veritas]

As a complimentary thought here, I think everyone agrees that the posting rate is unacceptable. Moreover, posting is contagious, so you would expect that more people posting could trigger some really great residual effects for the site as a whole. We'd all love to see 100 new posts every time we log in.

One real barrier that seems to have formed is a barrier to fame/credit for players. Consider:

• The AP system dramatically reduced the number of judgments.
• Real Judgments have not yielded a promotable JC thread in AGES.
• Tournaments have been run and finished with NO FANFARE.
• There is no way a new member would know there is any current, active PG stuff going on.

All of these bullets lead to the wasted opportunity in promoting the work of our members. We have a landing page that reads like a newspaper with the last news flash being "Man Lands On Moon". How would a new member not think our site is abandoned seeing that ghost-town situation?

[Max Dirks]

The shutdowns were caused when the former administrator didn't pay the bills. They weren't designed shut downs.

[Elthas_Belthasar]

Hey Tony yeah I gathered that much I was merely stating my own opinion on it.

Was just merely stating that we all had to restart. Either way dood thanks for setting the record straight on that!

~Pav

[FennWenn]

As someone new to here, more or less a fresh pair of eyes, there are sort of things I’ve noticed with your power groups; forgive me if I don't entirely understand how things work around here yet.

It's hard to tell what their goals are at a glance. The descriptions for some of them could use a little tweaking. In some of the other places I’ve been, groups were pretty obviously themed and had easy-to-see motives; this one was a thieves’ guild, this was a group of Knights who protected this town, this is a group of evil dudes trying to summon the demon prince, etc.

When I look at these groups, motives are harder to discern, and that makes it harder to both play out conflicts and recruit people. They don't seem to have any clear drive to speak of. A lack of posting in general contributes to this problem, I think.

I hope this helps. <3

[Mordelain]

I have been a part of this community since July 2009. I have witnessed great resurgences from apparent deaths repeatedly. When I left the site some six months ago, I did not intend to come back. Things had come to a natural conclusion: there was not enough to keep me here. I popped back in out of sheer curiosity a few weeks ago, and saw that, from the ashes, things were starting to grow.

This moment, right here, right now, is where the few people who make up Althanas can send it in one of two directions. Up. Down. Our choice. Nobody else’s.

There have been several such junctures over the years. The removal of the judgement system. The changes to the rubric. The major, constant turnover of staff. Whatever the cause of each particular crisis point, Althanas has remained. What is the problem now? I do not think that it is Power Groups. I do not think that it is staff. I do not think that is down to any one thing. Sometimes, just sometimes, this happens.

We do need to increase traffic on the site. Chain posts are not going to sustain us for long. We need OOC to springboard into IC, and that means brainstorming, writing workshops, and reflections and feedback posts on ongoing and past writing. We have always prided ourselves on being ‘of a better quality’, at least more so than most. Let us focus on that. Let us make it shine. My three suggestions (to use, leave, or warp), are:

1. Focus on judging vs. freeform. We have talked about it repeatedly but I think it needs approaching again. The introduction of AP has been, from my perspective, a heavily negative one. Either roll back to before then, then look at editing it from the ground up, or address wherever or not the current experience gaining system is where we want to keep the site.

2. Remove power groups. Temporarily. Disband all current groups, delete the archives, and introduce them in a smaller scale. Think of them more like Raid groups on Neverwinter/WoW. Five to ten people, which get stronger for being a team. No big grand headquarters (for relatively little reward), and a tier of bonuses dependant on contributions to the Wiki, to the post count, and to the development of interesting, fun, and welcoming stories.

3. Writing challenges, vignettes, and small-scale tournaments. I mean small. Week long, if that. A month at most, including judgement/feedback/round time. Not earth shattering titles or end of the world confrontations – just wrestling matches. Underground fight clubs. Sporting events. Change the nature of competitive roleplay on Althanas, as this is the best place to bring in quick fire, sudden, increases in activity.

4. I know, I said three, but…reduce the experience for solo threads. Just by 10% or so.

[Rayleigh]

On the matter of power groups, I want to echo what Mord said. I would support a complete, 100% overhaul of the way that we run things. If players want to keep their history for their character, fine. But we would do away with headquarters, and ask allPGs to reapply. We should hide/delete all old PGs. Honestly, there are so many dormant ones that the system seems really watered down. Hell, I have a PG that has been approved. I keep forgetting about it.

As for rewards, I would be in support of having PGs earn various rewards through writing-based activities. Win a vignette? You and the members of you PG get some small reward in the next PG thread. Clan battles will actually mean something again, because there could be a real reward at stake (rather than just a fancy sub-forum that you could buy with your GP anyway). These should be small groups, with real purposes, that they accomplish through writing. Or, if your PG hosts an event, you can earn something, which would benefit the entire site. Right now, PGs feel like just groups of people who chat in Skype, but don't have enough purpose on the site. That's fine - the Tarot, and the community of people within it are why I stuck around on Althanas. But if we want it to be more than that, we have to tighten down. Smaller groups, tougher application process, different rewards. Rewards could be anything, I suppose. Larger avatars for a period, exp/gp/ap boosts, etc. PGs should be a group you fight to be a part of. That you actively work to stay in. That you brag about belonging to. Not just a group of people you occasionally write with.

In summary, currently, PGs are confusing. They seem like an afterthought - you have to do some digging to find them. They're not advertised in our character profiles, or below our avatars, so they aren't something you wear like a badge (if they were, I think there would be more interest). For the actual PGs themselves, there is little idea of what is or isn't active. There are too many of them. They have little direction. The rewards feel like hand-outs - they could be so much better. You should really only be allowed to be a part of one (like most true guilds). I also think we should call them guilds. I like it better.

Also want to note that I don't hate PGs. Again, Tarot is why I've stuck around so long. The community is so, so important. But we can do better.

I also love the idea behind shorter, fast-paced writing activities. I was hoping to do quite a few of those in the spirit of NaNo next month. The trick will be getting people to actually participate. We've had month-long vignettes go without a single post, even though making a last-ditch effort would have netted you huge rewards. That indicates to me that it is a lack of motivation more than anything else. But if we do make a sort of pact to work harder, each of us, I think we can bring more life into that side of the site. I'm going to make an effort myself.

[Itinerant]

Just gonna second Mordelain and Ray, there's no better way for me to state points nor do I have any new ones.

[Cards of Fate]

I think as it stands there's a lot to be said about the current state of affairs. A lot of the issues that have occurred to the system were largely in part put in place by people with their hands in the pot to begin with. When HQ's rolled out, three of the four HQ spots were held by Pg's all ran by the guy who ran the show. A lot of stuff went down, and soon the Tarot became the only one with an HQ, and because no-one was really trying to get them, we got away with murder. Id propose the following changes, and see how things go from there.

Hq's and Pg's are a thing of the past. Instead we opt to give a new name to player run teams, something like guilds, squads, orders, etc. Upon establishing your merry band of theives (Which will have a new process altogether) you will establish a base. Bases are like HQ's, but watered down. Simply put, a Base is the IC location your team calls home. When establishing a base, you must state what country/reigon/area/town it is in, and you must state if it is a public/secluded/hidden base. At the start the base does nothing but provide as a plot point, somewhere to call home and somewhere to be attacked by a rival clan/team/band of thugs.

So far it sounds pretty similar, but here is where we start to diverge from the norm a bit. To submit a team for approval, you mast have three threads Icly done. One of which is your leader establishing the base, and two are recruitment threads that pull in your other members Icly. Teams must have at lest three members, and in order to be in an application they must have participated in the initial three threads. In order for someone to be added to the roster and begin receiving benefits (which we'll get to next) They must have one IC thread done with the team.

Now we're going to talk about Bases and clan wars. Unlike HQ's the bases aren't static when it comes to their rewards, but they have significantly watered down rewards from the word go. To start, a base gives you nothing. Then, for every thread completed by your team in the region/country/town/area your base is set, you will gain Base points (probably determined by some equation involving score or amount of posts, flat BP for no judgements). This new form of currency will allow your leader to select from a myriad of perks and rewards. Examples would be increased EXP or GP in said region, bazaar discounts, and ultimately that shiny subforum reward. However, not all bases earn BP at the same rate. If your base is public, you gain double BP for your efforts, however any schmuck can declare a clan war on you for no reason at all. If your base is secluded, you earn average BP, and when someone wants to declare a clan war on you they must complete two recon threads to locate your base before doing so. If your base is Hidden, you sequester yourself away from clan wars at the cost of halving the amount of BP you earn for your efforts. This way, anyone can take part in this system without having their arm twisted into a Clan war.

What do clan wars do however? Well, this is where things can get kinda tricky. Without the threat of losing an HQ, what is the point of a clan war? Well, we could do a number of things. Clan wars could be used to steal money out of team vaults, items from team storage, they could be used as a way to lower enemy BP while gaining large amounts of BP as well. They shouldn't be the main point of the Clan/Team/Squad/Goons feature, it should be a feature withing the feature to tailor to specific needs. By having hidden bases we allow people to opt out of this feature as well (and obviously hidden bases shouldn't be allowed to declare clan war without losing their hidden status).

Lastly I want to touch on the ability for teams to influence canon. In a lot of the stuff I've seen in the canon submission system, it talks about having a multitude of players. I suggest that the new team system have a "Influence" value over the reigon they are in. The large the value, the more sway their actions hold over the canon. A group with low influence can say they wrote out a coup and overthrew the local government, but a group with high influence could actually do something along those lines and have it regarded as canon. This way it allows anyone who wants to change the world to simply group up and take it on.

In terms of size, I'm biased. The Tarot is massive, and in it's prime it would need 22 members to fill all of its major spots. That being said, I do thing we need to limit the size of these groups. I'm thinking something like 10-15 people tops, or 10-15 people who can earn rewards. You can have a higher member base, but force leaders to choose.

Lastly, as a point of fairness, no PG's are grandfathered in. Even the Tarot will have to jump through the hoops to build their base back up.

That's my 2 bucks, any suggestions?